Curse

Xenomortis · Jul 20, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashiyu

Edit: I would try to drop Echo for DwG for the AP (especually in HM)...

I wouldn't. There's nothing in that build to improve the armour penetration on - Ancestor's Rage deals armour ignoring lightning damage.
But then again, I wouldn't ever run that build.

Klance · Jul 21, 2010, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

That's news to me. I'm sorry to hear that you personally cannot adapt.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Pv...ame=&Go=Submit
Then do it.

Players will still bring damage buffs and ways to get more damage through regardless of whatever changes are done to PvE or skills. That's common sense.

Considering you just posted a caster bar with non-elemental damage stapled to it, an option that is available to all other casters (spirits, minions+death nova, curses, domination/illusion, RoJ) but not to elementalists, I would like to see how YOU adapt to the fact that elemental damage does not cut it in HM.

Want to show me an effective HM elementalist bar? One that is not horribly outclassed by any other caster class?

Cuilan · Jul 21, 2010, 04:02 AM // 04:02

I never said elementalists didn't need any sort of buff, it's just that you and everyone else in this thread doesn't seem to like anything about elementalists even if they were buffed...that and many seem to suck at them here.

Klance · Jul 21, 2010, 07:20 AM // 07:20

I think the point that we're trying to make is that elemantalists are underpowered, especially in HM, compared to:

1. Other casters who all have a ways of doing armor ignoring damage, and can easily slot utility ability onto their bars.

2. Physicals, who all do armor ignoring damage and can easily be buffed, as well as pumping out SY! for defense.

The primary reason being the fact that they are confined to armor sensitive damage (other reasons are set out in my earlier post).

Of course if properly buffed elementalists can do DECENT damage in HM but that is at the expense of a well rounded bar (3 pve skills - BuH/Intensity/Mindbender/AoS/EBSoH, 2-3 e-management skills, 2 damage skills). And other casters, or physicals using the same buffs end up doing superior damage anyway.

Mashiyu · Jul 21, 2010, 10:46 AM // 10:46

I'm sorry if I left the impression that I don't like eles - there's a reason why ele is my main char. I just hope that - if we QQ enough - eles will be buffed sometime after dervs, paras and smiting monks. Please, let me the illusion that QQing helps ^^

ZenRgy · Jul 30, 2010, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Lightning Orb can miss if the mobs are moving. So what you do is tell your teammate to stay still (as in don't kite) so that the melee mobs can start hitting them. Then you can cast your lightning orb and/or DoTAoE with a guarantee that it would hit. I can't count how many time I was playing as an Ele and my monk teammate decides to kite like a madman (which is GOOD, but frustrating to me), and ALL my DoTAoE and/or Lightning Orb managed to hit air or got in 1-2 hits before the mobs ran out.

latepost

Or you could simply choose better targets! Or just glyph of swiftness. Lightning Orb is a projectile to balance out it's high damage, no exhaustion and armour penetration.

Deal with it.

Mashiyu · Jul 30, 2010, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Or use lightning hammer - costs 10e more and doesn't apply cracked armor but it's not a projectile.

To add some QQ: Scytesins have no problem dealing the dmg of lightning orb/hammer with a 5e skill... (yes you have to be in melee range but a scyte swing is faster than a lighning orb/hammer cast)

Cuilan · Jul 30, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Scythesins are also getting nerfed or toned down.

UnChosen · Jul 30, 2010, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

latepost

Or you could simply choose better targets! Or just glyph of swiftness. Lightning Orb is a projectile to balance out it's high damage, no exhaustion and armour penetration.

Deal with it.

Or I can use another class and kill the target before the ele can even find a good situation to use their "can miss" spells.

Also, I already stated this before...

Attunement, Cover Enchant, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Air of Superiority/Assassin's Promise/Glyph of Swiftness, Mind Bender, and Weaken Armor/Shell Shock if not using air skills.

I'm sorry that just maybe people don't want to spend over half their skill bars to "deal with it" when its better just to...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashiyu

To add some QQ: Scytesins have no problem dealing the dmg of lightning orb/hammer with a 5e skill... (yes you have to be in melee range but a scyte swing is faster than a lighning orb/hammer cast)

Its far easier IMO to deal with having to go in melee and to deal with anti-melee skills in comparison to having to cast half a dozen preparation skills just to make ele damage spells "somewhat" good. Of course nowadays there are caster stuff that do good armor ignoring damage for cheap as well -.-

Cuilan · Jul 31, 2010, 01:51 AM // 01:51

You should be praising that the high casting costs make it so other professions can't use elementalist skills as well, regardless if they're good or not.

Klance · Jul 31, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

You should be praising that the high casting costs make it so other professions can't use elementalist skills as well, regardless if they're good or not.

I fail to see how making elementalist skills cost alot make them good...

Though considering how bad comparatively most elementalist skills are other professions don't really want to use elementalist skills regardless of mana cost.

Lanier · Jul 31, 2010, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

Though considering how bad comparatively most elementalist skills are other professions don't really want to use elementalist skills regardless of mana cost.

Elementalist skills arnt bad. Its just that elemental damage in general isnt nearly as poweful as the powercreep boosted armor ignoring damage. Tone down enemy armor and up their health and the problem is all fixed. The gap between armor ignoring and elemental damage would be much smaller.

Mouse at Large · Jul 31, 2010, 09:29 AM // 09:29

The problem as I see it is a practical coding one. I would imagine that tweaking individual HM mobs armour/health would take a lot more effort than adding a secondary effect (graduated armour penetration or + graduated armour ignoring damage) to ES globally.

Given the limited resources of Anet, I propose the ES route for purely practical reasons.

Cuilan · Jul 31, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

I fail to see how making elementalist skills cost alot make them good...

You failed because my post didn't have anything to do with being good or bad.

Lanier · Jul 31, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

The problem as I see it is a practical coding one. I would imagine that tweaking individual HM mobs armour/health would take a lot more effort than adding a secondary effect (graduated armour penetration or + graduated armour ignoring damage) to ES globally.

Given the limited resources of Anet, I propose the ES route for purely practical reasons.

Uh, well i dont know how it was coded but i was under the impression that in HM, mobs' health and armor were increased by x or by x%. If this were the case, all they would need to do is tone down the x for armor and raise the x for health.

thetwistedboy · Aug 01, 2010, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

2. Physicals, who all do armor ignoring damage and can easily be buffed, as well as pumping out SY! for defense.

idk where you get your info from, but physicals do not by any means do armor ignoring damage. and a d-slash spammer does not compare to a fire nuker in dps

Desert Rose · Aug 01, 2010, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Uh, well i dont know how it was coded but i was under the impression that in HM, mobs' health and armor were increased by x or by x%. If this were the case, all they would need to do is tone down the x for armor and raise the x for health.

HM has no influence on armor or health.
Most mobs have 3 armor per level + class/racial boni, some mobs (i.e. avalanche) have a fixed amount of armor + racial boni.

Klance · Aug 01, 2010, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Actually in HM the levels of enemies are increased, and according to the official wiki '[c]reatures other than player characters have their basic armor rating decided by their level and profession.' (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Creature). Similarly as HP is determined by level raising the level of enemies in HM raises their HP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

idk where you get your info from, but physicals do not by any means do armor ignoring damage. and a d-slash spammer does not compare to a fire nuker in dps

On the official wiki - http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_skills, it states that:

'The + damage (also called bonus damage) from all attack skills ignore armor rating; however, the base damage of a weapon is still affected by armor rating.'

Also buff's to attack also result in bonus armor ignoring damage (order of pain, splinter weapon, GDW, strength of honor etc).

And then there are physical specific buffs such as asuran scan ('This damage bonus is calculated after other damage bonuses, so it takes into account increased damage from attack skills and other buffs') and Aura of Holy Might ('The damage increase from this skill is not added as a percent; instead, it is added on to your effective damage rating')

A well constructed physical char should easily outdamage a fire caster (assuming it is HM resulting in increased armor and therefore reduced damage efficiency of armor sensitive damage). I'm reasonably sure that damage comparisons have been run, either in this thread or elsewhere on the forum, though i don't have time at the moment to hunt down the specific posts.

maxxfury · Aug 01, 2010, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Uh, well i dont know how it was coded but i was under the impression that in HM, mobs' health and armor were increased by x or by x%. If this were the case, all they would need to do is tone down the x for armor and raise the x for health.

Isnt that what they did to UW-hm? decreased the Armour levels and increased the hp's and health regens?

Desert Rose · Aug 01, 2010, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

A well constructed physical char should easily outdamage a fire caster (assuming it is HM resulting in increased armor and therefore reduced damage efficiency of armor sensitive damage).

I'm sure no one in this forum would disagree that in a "normal" team a physical can outdamage an fire ele even when fighting against level 20 foes, but on the other hand far less would agree that this needs to be changed.